Episode 4: From Classical Percussion to Bodhrán with Jim Lindroth

Episode Overview

Jim Lindroth shares his backstory of how he got into Irish music through classical percussion. He discusses the influence of his classical training on his Irish playing, particularly in terms of technique, sound, and color. Jim also talks about his preparation for the Fleadh Cheoil competition and how he selected tunes based on their variety and opportunities for showcasing different rhythms and melodies. In this conversation, Jim and Hannah discuss the process of arranging traditional Irish tunes for the bodhrán. Jim shares his experience of finding space within the melodies and exploring different rhythms and accents. They also touch on the concept of authenticity in traditional music and how it can be interpreted differently by different musicians. Jim emphasizes the importance of listening and adapting to the playing styles of other musicians when accompanying them on the bodhrán.

Connect with Jim on Instagram and through his website!

Episode Transcript

Hannah: Well, Jim Lindroth, welcome to the Find Your Lilt Podcast. I'm excited to chat more! So anyone who has not heard of you before, give us a lilt bit of your backstory, how Irish music came into your life, the whole works.

Jim: Thank you so much for having me! Yeah, so I am living in Columbus, Ohio, originally from Summerville, South Carolina. I got into Irish music through classical percussion. So that's my background is classical percussion. I did, you know, middle school band, high school band, and then decided to major in music in college.

And my last year at University of South Carolina, Andy Kruspe a fantastic player and teacher from Huntsville, Alabama. He was doing like a lilt tour of universities where he would go around to different percussion studios and talk about bodhrán and talk about the drum and Irish music. And I've always kind of been into folk music. Like that's just been my background. It started with like indie folk, like the Decemberists and Sufjan Stevens, that kind of stuff.

But I think I started to get into a lilt bit more kind of traditional stuff too, like a little bit of progressive bluegrass. That kind of is not traditional, but you know what I mean. Andy came and did a workshop. And so that was my first introduction to the drum and I'm thinking of progressive bluegrass. Like one of the things he did was he showed he played along to a song by Nickel Creek. I think it was the butter.

Butter, something about a butterfly, or maybe the lighthouse, something like that. But I remember seeing that and I, me who was so into like folk music, I was like, well, this is like a drum that is in folk music and that is awesome. It's not something that I've really ever seen before, or like at least that I would be able to play before. And so...

Like drum set really isn't in any kind of traditional things, nor is like a lot of percussion, unless you go to like the Middle East or like Africa, that kind of stuff.

So I yeah, I didn't really have any any outlet for folk music with drums, at least in my life and what I was doing. And so I saw that and I thought it was so cool. But again, like, it's the kind of thing like just the drum is so neat. But I knew that I didn't have any opportunities to play it. There was no outlet for, there was no reason for me to pursue it because there was no opportunities for me to play it anywhere. And then for grad school, I moved up to Columbus, to Ohio State, and I randomly was having a conversation with this guy, Brogan Riley, and he, I was just invited out to a bar with some people, and I was talking to him, and somehow the conversation of Irish music came up. After I had been introduced to the bar, I started listening to some things, and...

And he, yeah, the conversation of Irish music came up and he was saying like, because he was a trumpet player there. He's like, I play guitar and my girlfriend plays flute. And we've been like wanting to do some Irish music. And I was like, I will buy a bodhrán tonight. Like if you want to play Irish music together. Yeah, I'm down. And so I contacted Andy that night and I was like, I want your book and I want to know where to get a drum.

And so Andy, he sent me his book. I still have the book and the note that came on it. I was like, thanks for buying it. And he said, I'm actually about to get a prototype beginner drum from this one guy in the next couple of days. Would you mind waiting to see if it's any good? And I'll recommend it to you. He was like, yeah, sure, that sounds great. He got it in the next few days. He reached it back out to me. He was like, hey, this is an awesome drum. You should buy it. Here's the information for the guy that makes it. And he happened to be in Columbus.

And so I reached out to him. He came to the School of Music to drop it off. And then he was there and he was like, hey, so like, what sessions do you go to? And I was like, what's that? Just had like zero. I knew nothing about like the culture of Irish music. I just had was listening to some different bands. And so he invited me out to like a suburb of Columbus where he was running the session. Brent Kyler is his name, if he's listening out there. And so he asked me.

If I go on any sessions and I hadn't been, somebody invited me out to Gehenna to a session at a bar there and I didn't bring the drum, I just listened and then I went to the practice room and practiced for like four months straight before I went back to my, the next one. So that's more or less it. Like I just kind of like fell into it through a couple of different happy accidents.

Brogan has not ever played Irish music since then. Yeah, I invited him to like, well, he came out to one session once, didn't bring a guitar or anything, but he has lots of other musical outlets. So anyway, neither here nor there, but yeah.

Hannah: So just made room for a new space.

Jim: That's right, yeah, yeah, exactly. So yeah, that's the story as short as I can make it, but it's kind of just, ever since then, I've just been super into trad and just going for it, but yeah.

Hannah: Nice. I'm learning new things about you for one thing, which is awesome. Yeah, it's so cool that you have that background with Andy because he came to Furman while I was there to do that percussion workshop. And that was the one time that I saw him until like this past February where we both saw him at Tune Junkie weekend in Knoxville. And I was telling him about it. I was like, so like, the last time I saw you was like, what, eight or nine years ago when you did this percussion workshop and I wasn't a percussion student but it was like the one Irish music event that Furman had was Andy teaching bodhrán I was like I have to go I have to go like sit in and I think I was taking percussion method at the time so like you know that the the teacher let me let me sit in it was just just for fun there but yeah I was that's that's just really cool that you have that background with Andy too so yeah.

Jim: Yeah, yeah, he yeah, he's influenced quite a handful of people to get into it sounds like or at least you know you were already into it but you know he's he's doing the work yeah yeah

Hannah: Yeah, for sure. Go back to colleges, Andy!

Jim: Yes please Andy. Yeah go back to more colleges!

Hannah: So we have kind of a couple of different angles that we can go with this chat because I definitely wanted to touch more on your classical background because even though we both have one, you're coming to it from the percussion standpoint, I'm coming to it from the violin. So I would love to hear more about like, you're both a performer and a teacher, like how you bring that background and approach to what you're doing today, and if you're performing and you're teaching.

Jim: Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to talk about that kind of stuff. So like, in what regard do you mean? Like, do you are you thinking about the way I bring classical stuff into bodhrán or to Irish? Or do you mean other way? Like, what ways do I bring Irish into classical?

Hannah: Maybe like just like some different ways that you were trained and how does that show up in your Irish playing?

Jim: I think that there's a few things that I think have kind of helped some. A big emphasis on technique in my classical training.

And not only that, but having, because in percussion, so as a classical percussionist, in case anybody out there is not familiar with what I do with that, like you have to play a lot of different types of drums and therefore you have to play a lot of different types of techniques and you have to hold sticks and mallets in your hands in different ways depending on what instrument you're doing. We try to make it as similar as possible, but there are some very particular specific things you need to do.

And because I've had to do that so many times and because I've had to spend so much time thinking about the way I hold things and the way I move and like tension and all those things. That has helped me a lot with bodhrán when I was getting into it. Technically, like I just knew some of the things to look for, like how to look for tension in my body, how to approach like movement and how to how to try and release those muscles and not not be tense.

And how to feel like I'm moving appropriately with my body as well. Like making sure that I am playing as ergonomically as possible and like moving with my body how it naturally wants to move and like naturally wants to hold itself. So there are some of those things and I can get into that more technically and specifically if you would like.

Hannah: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Give us an example or two.

Jim: One of the biggest things I learned in classical percussion technique is that if it feels wrong, it's probably wrong. Specifically, so there's one thing that we do in, you said there's gonna be a video component of this, so if you're watching the video, you can see. But if you're just listening, I apologize. So there's a way that percussionists hold two sticks, two mallets in one hand. You wouldn't do it with tippers like this. You would do some, I have mallets right here.

like some xylophone mallets like this, you would hold it in your hands like so. And like, it's this really kind of funky little technique where like your mallets are sticking through your fingers in weird ways and like, there's a lot of really small moving parts with this. And I mean, I still teach students this technique all the time and...

Like if you do this technique wrong, and like as well as like any instrumental technique, you can develop the carpal tunnel and tendonitis, those kinds of things that can mess up your life, not just musically, but just kind of in general. And so by working on this technique, like there are certain things that students typically do that will lead to those types of things.

Hannah: Yeah, so just for anyone who's just listening, I'm gonna kind of describe what I'm seeing here on the screen. So you have two mallets in one hand and your fingers are like curved around, like two of them are on the one stick and then they, yeah, you're holding it between your thumb and your... I'm definitely gonna grab a clip of this for Instagram, so yeah.

Jim: Yeah, so yeah, it's kind of weird. Yeah, if you want to look it up. So it's called Stevens Technique and named after Marimbas to name Lee Howard Stevens. And so I have one mallet. So this is like a xylophone mallet, like a small thin wooden dowel that is.

One of them is in my ring and pinky fingers. Like I kind of wrap those around it and put it on the outside. It goes on the outside of my middle finger. And then the other one kind of, the part of it is in the middle of my hand. The butt end of it is in the middle of my hand. And then it kind of goes up through my middle finger and then my thumb and my index finger on that one as well. So it's like, I mean, it's hard to explain because it's so crazy looking. And so yeah, this technique right here is.

It's a little weird. But you have to move super ergonomically when you have this kind of thing because you're using all these really tiny muscles. And if you're overusing one of them or if you're squeezing too tight or there's too much tension or like you're moving in a slightly wrong way, you can really hurt yourself, which maybe means that we shouldn't do it. But, you know, that's fine. Right.

Hannah: But we're musicians, we ignore such things.

Jim: Exactly. And like that's the thing too. Like if it hurts, it's probably wrong. But like if, if, if there's pain, it's wrong. If it's sore, that's something different. Like with this type of thing, you have to develop weird kinds of muscles. But one of the things that I, I try to do is keep my hand like as natural as possible. So the thing I tell students all the time, even in like snare drum, marimba, timpani, anything like that, is if you have your arm at your side, and just hanging there. That is the most relaxed position your hand is gonna be in.

And so therefore, that's the position we wanna keep it in the most, and we wanna get it closest to that as possible. So when we hold these mallets in this weird way, I'm trying as little as possible to change how my hand would be if it were hanging from my side.

Hannah: It's like you could take this stick out and yeah, it would just be like you're kind of holding your hand. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: Right, exactly, my hand would just be kind of there. And so to that end, it's the same thing with the tipper. That's the same way that I want to hold the stick is if I were to just have my hand hanging there, I just kind of, you know, there's a couple points it needs to hit, but otherwise I'm just going to put it as if my hand were hanging by my side.

Hannah: It's very similar with like the bow. So, you know, I talk about the alternate bow hold or holding my bow higher up and there is a classical hold that a lot of people play. And I, so I think my big spiel there is that, you know, there are multiple options that you can do in order to play the fiddle. I just happened to find that the higher bow hold just gets more of the sound that I want. So would you say that translates over to the bodhrán it all? Like, are there different holds that you can or should or shouldn't use?

Jim: Sure, yeah. There are as many, yeah, for sure, absolutely. There are as many holds as there are players, right? Not only do we have different preferences for how we want to hold it, and that depends on the style we want to play in, but I also think too, all of our bodies are different. And so what works for me might not work for you exactly the same. As long as we're moving appropriately and we're not hurting ourselves, I think it's good.

There are a couple different things. So there's a couple players. I do what is, I don't know exactly how you would call it. Some people call it like the dart hold or like a pencil hold, something like that, where I hold it. Yeah, like a pencil. Yeah, so like if I were to have a pencil in my hand and just like move it towards the other end, like that's more or less how I'm holding it. There are some players who do what's called a baby grip.

So like if a baby and it's kind of falls along the same line of like that relaxation where your hand is just kind of hanging and like maybe even falls a lilt bit more intently Where you literally just like the way a baby would grasp something like this where your fingers just kind of close That's literally what you do like you just kind of put it in between your index finger and your thumb like that and like and then you move and so there's you know, Some great players that play like that I know some people who who hold it just like with all of the fingers on one side and the thumb on the other and they just play on the side like that.

There's I think Tommy Hayes like holds it at the bottom end and plays like that. So like there are tons of different techniques and I think that you can more or less play any particular any style. There are some limitations of course depending on what you're doing but you can more or less play whatever style you want with with the grip for bodhrán at least because like it, there's a lot more to do with the sound of the drum as well and how you're playing it like that.

Hannah: Yeah. So ergonomics is one area that definitely like you spent a lot of time thinking of for the classical side. And so you've got your different technique there and it's not necessarily directly translating over like you wouldn't hold a tipper the same way that you would hold the xylophone balance as just demonstrated. But it's the ideas are, you know, translatable if like there are different holds and different ways to go about accomplishing that.

Jim: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then some other ways that classical music has helped too is thinking about sound a lot. With percussion, like we, again, we play so many different instruments and there's so many different colors you can get out of these different instruments. Like there's, you know, like a hundred million different ways to hit a cymbal and you can get like a slightly different color out of it. Or like if you change the mallet, you use a lilt bit, you're going to get into a lilt bit different color too.

Timpani is like, I have a love -hate relationship with Timpani because it's literally teaching it like a lesson last night. And it's just like, they're sensitive lilt babies. Like if you change the way like your hand, if you just don't bring it up and you just bring it down a lilt bit, like it, you can just hold it down like for a half second longer. Like the sound is completely different. I mean, it's like maybe a lilt bit minute, but like it's different enough to be able to hear it. And so as far as sound goes, like I try to be intentional about the sounds I'm making on the drum as possible. And so that's something as well. And being able to experiment and find lots of different ways to play on the drum and be aware of those different ways of playing too, that's I think another way that Classical has helped.

Hannah: I'm glad you touched on the color too, because I know like the stick or the tipper that you're using will also change that. And you're, I mean, a good example of using variety in your tippers. So maybe anyone who's not familiar with like the different types of bodhrán tippers out there, like what kind of sounds are you getting from each of those?

Jim: Sure. So, yeah, I have a whole collection here. And I got my drum with me too. I can maybe play like a couple of notes. So, yeah, I mean, you can have a hard tipper. So there's some like old traditional style ones. I don't have them with me because I don't really use them. But they usually have like some bulbous ends on them and like the kind of… They bulge out towards the ends. I don't really know how to say that. But those are usually made with wood.

But there are some more contemporary wooden ones as well. Like the one I'm holding, if you've seen the video, it's just kind of shaped like a lilt tiny drumstick. I think this is technically the Robbie Walsh signature model by Falconer. But so this one's a little tiny drumstick. And so it has a kind of punchy sound to it, very articulate.

Some of the other ones are maybe called effect tippers. So they're little bundles of sticks. If you're a drum set player, it's what we would call a hot rod. It's just literally like a lot of tiny little sticks all bundled together. And so I have a few different ones here, some that I made, some that I bought. Like there's one, I think that these are, I think I remember about these years ago, I think that they're a walnut, but some of the raisin in them made me think maybe that they're oak.

But yeah, there's like maybe 20 or so lilt tiny sticks put together. And this is a lilt bit fatter, but they're really tiny sticks. So I get a little bit of a rounder sound to it. And you get a little bit of that percussive effect too, like the sticks hitting one another as well. And then I have another tipper. I think I made this with some, I want to say with some poplar dowels, but it looks a lilt bit light for popular, so maybe it's something else. no, these are probably pine. I think I got them from a craft store. And these are a lilt bit thicker, and so there's fewer of them, but they have a lilt bit more of that click.

I think especially when I get like a closed sound like that. And then, you know, there's some others too, a lilt bit of like I have this other one that's a combination of thick rods and some thin ones. A lilt bit more. I like this one a lot actually because it's like a more percussive. It's like really, it's like kind of small details here, but.

Hannah: It would like depend on like what side of that you hit too, like if it's a thicker one or a thinner one.

Jim: You mean like the top end versus the bottom end?

Hannah: Or no, like just like, you know, what part, cause if you've got like a collection of the, I can't tell if there's the thick ones on the outside or thin ones on the inside or if they're just kind of all combined together, but would it make a difference? Like which like angle?

Jim: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I haven't noticed that necessarily with this one right here that has, so this one is like three big ones and three little ones and they kind of make a little circle together like that. I haven't noticed too much of a difference. I mean, at a certain point it's kind of like diminishing returns, you're not gonna hear much of a difference from this versus that, like where I was intentionally hitting on a particular side. But this one right here, like it's the same types of dowels, but this one, there's one big one in the middle and then a bunch of tiny ones out of it.

Hannah: I see. Okay.

Jim: It's a little bit different, like you get a little bit more of that clack up there. So, yeah. Yeah, a little bit of different sounds like that way.

Hannah: I could do the same with like, you know, what bow ornamentation do I want to do or, you know, changing up the... People change string types based on tone.

Jim: Right. Yeah. Or like how close you're playing to the bridge. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. All these different lilt ways to find color.

Hannah: That all lends in well to the tradition just with the variety and the lilt nuances here and there for that. So I think it all fits in well. Is there anything else like in your teaching that you would say, or maybe we can take this from like more of a performance standpoint, because we can kind of transition over into the other thing I want to talk to you about, which is your preparation for the Fleadh Cheoil. So just to bring anyone who's not aware up to speed, Jim won the bodhrán over 18 competition for the Midwest Fleadh, and I had the great joy of being his melody player.

So we were working on that a lot in the last month, I guess, or probably, I don't know how long you were working on that, but I would love to hear more about your prep process for that and just like how you approached your different tunes. And I know I was kind of part of the selection for like, which tunes you were going to play, but you had a very clear idea of which, like, there are different tunes out there that provide more options for you to do.

So how did you come to that decision of like, this hornpipe has more opportunities than this hornpipe or this jig or this polka? What was your thought process there?

Jim: Yeah, that's a really great question. So picking tunes for the Fleadh and figuring out which ones maybe had more opportunity than others, that's a really great question. So I think that for the most part, like, I think that you had, because I wanted to play something you'd be comfortable with, so like you had to do as little work as possible.

And so you gave me a few ones to pick from for the... I had a reel in mind in particular, but then you gave me a couple polkas, a couple hornpipes and a couple jigs. I think that... So the first and foremost, like I'll start with the polka, I think that was... Ultimately, I think that was one of the easier ones.

I went back and forth a lilt bit because I really liked the other polka that you had, the Muirsín Duirsín. Yeah, so I really like that polka. It was a really good one, but the A part if I remember correctly the A part and the C part are kind of similar to one another At least in the way that I was hearing it and the way that I would be accompanying it I found it to be kind of similar and so it didn't have enough variety because for the Fleadh itself, I was trying to like, you know, show off some different things and different ways of accompanying. And so I don't think that I had enough of a difference, the A part and the C part from one another to be able to accompany it differently in a significant way. And so I kind of picked that's one of the reasons I picked John Brosnan's polka is because all the sections were completely distinct from one another.

Hannah: And would you say you were looking more at like the note values or the notes themselves like intonation wise or more like the rhythm of like this is two quarter notes followed by pattern of eighth notes as just the same pattern.

Jim: Yeah, rhythmically, melodically, I think all of those things. So where some of the big notes are, like where you would be playing more emphasis kind of just naturally. Yeah, and thinking rhythmically too. Yeah, rhythmically and melodically. I mean, I guess that's music. But yeah, looking for opportunities to maybe try and do something cool with one of the directions of the notes going.

Rhythmically it's a lilt bit different there. The melody is going in a lilt bit different direction too. You know, so you got a lilt bit of that. And then the C part. There's a lilt bit of space there, which is great. So like otherwise it's just kind of going, going, going like a polka and then, bam, bam, bam. And so that's nice to have a moment there. It's also really easy to catch and also really easy to play with. Like we did like a little hop in there, like, bam, bam, bam, to like just make use of that a bit. Yeah, exactly. And like, and it's using not only different rhythms and different directions of the melody, but different registers of the fiddle too. And that's, I think that Muirsín Duirsín I think that the A and the C also like were relatively in the same part of the like like same same range of the fiddle I think too.

Hannah: Yes, I know that one is a mashup of two different polkas that have just kind of, you know, ended up as a as a three -parter, so I wonder if that has part to do with it, or maybe the... maybe John Brosnan's, like, it was intended as a three -part, so you definitely hear that variety in there, as opposed to it being maybe a bit more, like, kind of a mash of two very similar tunes, yeah. Which is not to bash on Muirsín Duirsín at all, because it's a great polka, but...

Jim: No, it's a great polka. Yeah. Yeah, just for me, it wasn't enough variety within the tune itself to, yeah.

Hannah: And you had something similar with the jig as well because we had Mooncoin and Coming of Spring as two options. So what in the Mooncoin? Was it similar to like the variety or…?

Jim: No, I don't think so. Not for that one. So there were certain things I was trying to show off on the drum. Not show off, but like show that I like different ways that

Hannah: showcase. Yeah.

Jim: yeah, exactly. Like the Mooncoin jig is such a cool too. I really liked that one. But I would have been doing like a lot of...

I guess so Coming of Spring had a few more opportunities for like the types of rhythms that are maybe more typical on the drum if that makes sense. I'd have to listen to both of them again a lilt bit to say for certain exactly what I'm trying to communicate. But I think that Mooncoin I'd be having to follow.

Like the way I would accompany that would be following the melody a lilt bit more versus kind of playing typical jig rhythms underneath. And so I wanted to be able to play typical jig rhythms to show that I can, right? Like that was part of it is just showing that I can, I know how the tune goes. And then from there being able to play with it and mess around with it a bit. And so the Mooncoin I think melodically it has a lot of variation, it goes kind of all over the place. Which is one of the reasons it's cool. It wouldn't have shown off exactly what I wanted to show off, if that makes sense.

Hannah: Yeah! So, maybe to take it from the other angle then, what was it in The Coming of Spring that you were especially... I mean, I know I was there and I was listening to you, but anyone who hasn't heard our particular collaboration of The Coming of Spring, what would be the other one?

Jim: Yeah, it was the other one that you gave me. Yeah, so there were some big hits. There were, again, easy rhythms to kind of catch onto in the melody and play around with in a lilt bit more space. I think that the Mooncoin didn't have as much space in it for me to be able to do different things. It was a lilt bit more strict melodically. I might be talking out of my butt a lilt bit here. And then, yeah, I think there were some opportunities for like following the melody a lilt bit within like the B part of Coming of Spring. So the A part. Right. I have those big notes there so I can show like those and like that's a typical bodhrán rhythm and really boom boom boom.

And then like the B section, it had that big, depending on how you think of it, that big, like a bigger note on like B2, right? Like there was like a longer note there, right? If I remember correctly. Yeah. And then, and so then I can follow it melodically like that. I can go down on the bodhrán and land on that big note with you to kind of show like, I'm listening to the melody and like a lilt bit. And then in the C section, it had like a lilt bit more driving if I remember correctly.

There's a particular rhythm on the drum where I'm just able to drive a little bit more with that accent accentuating the third, or again, depending on how you think about counting jig rhythm, either the three and the six, or the third partial and the sixth partial, because that's all the same. But if you know what I mean.

Yeah, those were kind of the reasons that I picked those ones there.

Hannah: So we've kind of touched on phrasing a bit now and a lilt bit of the variation because you were looking to do both the kind of the basic rhythms and then also showcase a couple other things that you could do with with the with the bodhrán. So is there anything else that like as you were prepping for the Fleadh that you had in mind or just like how did how did you go about prepping?

Like when you weren't, I know you were listening to me playing and probably sick of me by the time we actually met up in Chicago, but yeah, maybe.

Jim: Maybe, maybe! Yeah, so I think this is actually a really interesting way to talk about, or to talk about that cross between classical and, you know, trad a little bit. In that, I hadn't...

Like I was essentially trying to find some kind of arrangement of the tune. Like this is an idea for the first time of the A section. This is an idea for like the second time through the A section, the second time, you know, like trying to find some things like that to like make like an arrangement of the tune. Like this is how I'm going to move through the tune to show off different things.

So, yeah, essentially arranging the tune. That's what I was trying to work towards. And in classical music, at least in my experience in classical music, and I can't speak for everybody and like there are plenty of people that do have experience arranging. That is not something that I ever did all that much. I've done like a little bit here and there, but not in any kind of super complex or concrete way or certain super thorough way. Like I've arranged a couple of tunes for like Steel Pan, but like literally all I did was like put the melody up and then like have some rhythms underneath like in some chords. And like that was it. Like no like heavy hits or like no like cool like chromatic.

or anything like that. It was really just kind of like copy paste like...

Hannah: You've got like kind of your music theory exercises that you have to do to like, you know, two or three bars, write a piece and yeah, do chordal.

Jim: Right, exactly. Yeah. And so my job as a classical musician is to take notes that other people have written and play them, interpret them and make them musical. But I don't do anything with them other than adding emphasis and music and feeling or whatever emotion and however you think of it.

Hannah: Like, personal expression, yeah.

Jim: Right, exactly. Other than adding that, that's like I don't... Like I don't do any arranging. And so, and again, as a percussionist, there are plenty of people who, who do have that experience, who there are plenty of percussionists who also compose or plenty of percussionists who are like have done crazy amounts of drum set and therefore like have, like experience like in jazz ensembles, arranging tunes and doing that kind of thing. That's not anything that I pursued all that much. I have some experience in those things, but again, not very much.

It was honestly a new experience for me with the bodhrán. And one of the reasons I wanted to do the Fleadh, to kind of push myself and do something new and try to push my playing. And so the way I kind of ended up doing it was just jamming, more than anything. Putting your tunes on and putting repeat on iTunes or Apple Music, whatever it is, and then like just playing through it again and again.

And like, if there was like a little idea that I liked, I like wrote it down. It was like, that was cool the way I did that that time. I would write it down like in whatever section I thought it would be. And like, so what ended up happening was I have this like notebook with there's like all these lilt ideas, like just kind of randomly put about and then I would write like first time and then like maybe then like, no, actually I like it in this section instead. And so I like draw like moving around some and so, and then trying to, so I would try to then make some kind of order with them to be able to just be able to have some kind of musical notion with the one tune where maybe there's an arch form to it or something like that where you're growing throughout it or like you're changing in a way that makes sense.

Like, so I'm going to go down, like if I'm going down to the section, of course I need to then play a low note, but then what if I hit a high note app? You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. And so, yeah, that was like a new experience for me. And like, I don't know to speak the candidly too, I don't know how trad that is either.

Hannah: I think there's some areas of Trad, because like, so I'm the same as you, like I've barely done any arranging for classical music and like, even now with Trad, like I'm arranging my songs on my album because I want to have a fiddle line that I've written in for myself, but like, you know, you have the song and then you have to kind of, you know, work that stuff in.

So really, as far as arranging tunes go, we're starting to do a little bit of that in my band Trillium, just to kind of bring our own spin to the tunes. But I think if you're just playing in a session, you've got your standard AABB three times through the tune. I mean, sometimes it depends on the session, but you've got that format. And so there's not really as much space for arranging.

Like you can kind of like, if it's a tune that you know really, really well and you're like, okay, I'm really sick of playing, you know, Kesh jig or Silver Spear here. And I want to like try and do a little variation or drop down the octave just to like make that bit different, but you're not like changing, like you're still playing the melody. You're just not, like I'm not gonna just be like droning a low B for, you know, the entire A part. So it's, yeah. I mean I could, but... So some people frown on that in some sessions.

Jim: Right. You could. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, so I think it's an interesting side of Trad then, too. It is more towards the performance end of things, you know, versus just getting together. But to that end as well, an arrangement comes from ideas you get at a session, right? You get from just, at least in my experience, just from playing the tunes and jamming along to them. And if you make a mistake, you're like, actually, that mistake sounded cool. What if I did it again?

Hannah: Yeah, yeah. I tell students that. It's like, it wasn't a mistake. It's a variation.

Jim: Right, no, absolutely, like, no, there's some times that like, yeah, cause I, I'm like, I didn't mean to do that, but like, I'm gonna keep doing that. Yeah. It happens all the time. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Hannah: Yeah. A happy accident. Yes. Winifred Horan’s approach to arranging is, and I'd love to talk to her more about this, but like she doesn't ever want to take away from the tune. It's like you're kind of enhancing what's already there and you're maybe taking bits and pieces like maybe if you're doing like an arpeggio.

Like, can you hold on that for a little bit longer and can you create some sort of, like, bed for the tune to lay on? So I think that that's an approach to arranging that I definitely resonate with, but... Yeah, as you're saying, like, getting bits from the session and ideas of what to actually do and kind of reconfigure. I think that has a lot to do with it. Yeah.

So the podcast is Find Your Lilt. So we could talk a little bit about like, how to create lilt with the bodhrán.

Jim: Yeah. Well, then what do you, you're talking about finding your lilt what do you mean by lilt? Like I want to make sure that I'm like, yeah, I mean, I just want to make sure I have an idea of what you mean by that.

Hannah: What do I mean by lilt? we're flipping the script here!

No, no. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think for me, Lilt, it's not just like swing or bounce. It's just like, it's what we've been talking about with the listening, the phrasing. It's like getting to the real feel of the tune. So you're not sounding like, I mean, of course, here we are, both classical players coming into Irish music, but it's not like we're, you know, sight reading something and sounding like we've never played Irish music before. Like, there's different elements that fall into, you know, making it sound...

I don't like to use the word “authentic”, but it is kind of like the most accessible word for what I'm trying to say. So, you know, like you're also, you know, have the ethnomusicology background. So I'm sure you had the whole discussion of like, what is authentic? What is... And yeah.

Jim:

Yeah, I think that there was a portion of my thesis was I was originally going to write like a good portion of a thesis on authenticity. I think I haven't read my thesis in a while. But yeah, I think that there was something about authenticity in there for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that is to say, I know what a trite is that we're looking for a trite word that is. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, so like kind of how to approach authenticity on the drum then. Is that like, yeah. So, ooh, you can see my pit stains there. Okay, cool, yeah.

Hannah: I won't put that video clip. That is the intro to the podcast!

Jim: That's gonna be the sound bite. That's gonna be the sound bite at the beginning. that'd be so good. Okay, so.

Hannah: That's the episode title!

Jim: You can see my pit stains! That happened after the Fleadh. Like after like the, yeah. Yeah, I, yeah, no, I looked down and was like, I could see it on the outside. It was just like, I'm dripping, okay.

Hannah: Yeah, I know it. I think I was wearing a dark shirt, so that was a good thing. Yeah.

Jim: Well, I mean, like, hey, this is what we could talk about. Like, keep that in because we can tie that into this because like that was one of the kind of interesting things about the Fleadh was that like we talked about like how arranging isn't necessarily trad, but like in the classical background and stuff, but like in how that intertwines, but like it felt more like a classical performance than anything, than like a trad performance.

Hannah: Yeah, like a jury. Yeah, that's like the closest thing that I've done to my degree is, you know, playing my final exam for a panel.

Jim: Right, yeah, like literally. And like, it was so funny. I was explaining it to like a co -worker. I was like, yeah, I'm calling off because I'm going to do this thing. And she's like, so it's like solo and ensemble. I was like, I guess so. Like, if anybody out there is not familiar, it's essentially like you're a middle schooler or a high schooler, and you learn a solo, and you go play it for a judge, and they give you some comments. Like, that's literally what it is.

Yeah, but it was just such a weird thing that I help high school kids through that. I'm like, it's interesting that they get so freaked out about it. And then I go and do that thing

Hannah: Yeah. You don't get nervous for a gig, do you?

Jim: No, no, no. The only gigs I get nervous for are whenever I'm playing guitar. They don't happen often. And so, but like that was, it was really interesting.

I'm glad honestly for the performance experience that I've had like through classical music and like having to get nervous in those situations because like I have become so used to being nervous and like I know I know what it's going to feel like. I know that I'm going to be OK after I know that things are going to go wrong. I'm going to mess things up and not play them how I want to because it's not like my brain is not going to be working the way that it normally would. And so I'm aware of all those things. And it was like.

And maybe the other people weren't nervous. I have no idea. Maybe people were chill with it. But yeah, it was nice to have had all of those mistakes I've made in like studio class and in school playing a marimba solo because that like it helped me normalize that feeling of being uncomfortable in that way. And like, I mean, like I, I get lots of energy before I have to do something like that. Like I was, I don't know if I was jumping up and down at the Fleadh.

Hannah: You were pacing. Yeah.

Jim: Yeah, I was pacing a lot! If I knew that I wasn't going to distract people, I would have been jumping up and down just to get energy out. And like, I know that there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with having that extra energy that you need to get out and like moving in that way, like it may like make you feel worse. Like I'm pacing, I shouldn't need to be pacing, but like it's…

Hannah: I think they need to have a set of trampolines at the Fleadh now for all the runners up. We'll just...

Jim: Yes, please! Yeah, just like on deck, like you're just jumping. Yeah, absolutely. That'd be great.

Hannah: Yeah. You can have like a screen so you can't see. It's not distracting the audience or the current performer, but yeah.

Jim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be great. So anyway, like that honestly helped a lot with that. And like, if there are people out there that do struggle with any anxiety know that it's normal and that like there's nothing wrong with you or it and just move just keep doing it you'll be fine there's this podcast I listen to called Behind the Bastards not necessarily it's not necessarily for everyone out there it's it covers a lot of the worst people in history but the host he had an episode about like contemporary like just mass anxiety and like how we like mass hysteria and how we get swept up in like some some certain like thoughts of conspiracy and I don't mean like in any like just like general ones like people are like, I remember as a kid being terrified of like the idea of like walking to my car and unlocking it and then somebody jumping in the backseat and that's not anything that's like probably ever happened or like very few instances of it but like there's that that paranoia in the back of your head.

Hannah: Or like you're driving and someone pops up behind you. Yep, yep.

Jim: Right, yeah exactly! And it's like, what? And it was really interesting. One of the things he said in the episode was like, go Google a cave bear. That's why you're anxious. That is why you're nervous all the time. It's because we have this thing in the back of our head that's like, you always need to be on the lookout because there's things out to get you. Because at one point in time, we lived in the wild and there were.

And the world was a much more uncertain place than it is now. It's still uncertain, but yeah. So that is to say, biologically we're made to have some kind of stress and some kind of nerves and anxiety. And so there's 100 % like, it means you're normal if you're nervous, but anyway, that's a long aside.

Hannah: Yeah, it's, no, I mean, I think it's a good one.

Jim: Because the pit stains! Maybe I'm nervous for this interview! Yeah. So what was I about to talk about before? Yeah.

Hannah: We were kind of going on lilt and getting, we started with authenticity and then we were kind of maybe pulling back from that a bit.

Jim: Yeah, so a couple of thoughts on that. And like my ideas about it have kind of changed and like how I try to approach the drum. And.

Like if we use the word authenticity, like, well, you know, what is authenticity? Like, yeah, I'm trying to be authentic as an Irish musician. I'm trying to like, you know, stay within the tradition. But at the same time, like what is authentic to me as a percussionist and as a as a drummer too? And like one of the big things, like for an example, is the backbeat. If you know, if you listen to like pop music or or rock or like any contemporary, like popular music, anything you would hear on the radio.

you're gonna hear a really big back beat. Cat, cat, cat, right? The cat that I'm saying there, that's that feel. And so when I was starting out on the drum, that was authentically who I was and the kind of music that I listened to and performed at the time.

But that is not something you're gonna find within Irish traditional music. There are examples of some groups out there, Capercaille like every song that they do has a crazy backbeat to it, right? Like what's that one tune? It's like the Wedding Reel or something, or like Macleod's Farewell, I think they changed the name. But like,

Right? They do like that backbeat like in like what they're in there playing but like that's not That's not like in traditional Irish music you're not gonna go listen to like videos of like people from like the 1950s like like playing a backbeat like that at all.

That's not something you're gonna find in traditional Irish stuff. But to me as a percussionist at the time, that was who I was. I was playing backbeats a lot. But because of that too, I have tried to lean closer towards what might be “traditional,” I'm putting air quotes up there. I mean it is traditional, but also tradition evolves and grows and all that kind of stuff.

Hannah: Yeah, for sure.

Jim: As an ethnomusicologist, I have to say that.

Hannah: I mean, as a fellow ethnomusicologist, I would have to agree.

Jim: Yeah, absolutely. There was a Steve, what's his name? Stephen Feld. Like that was, I remember like one of the epilogues to his books. He was like, cause he was in this like on this island at a particular time. And he was, he was just there like at the end of the people playing traditional music and like globalization was happening and pop music was coming in and people were making like, and like he kind of had this like lilt lament. I think it was Stephen Feld. I think it was his book. He wrote a little lament for like the traditional music that was dying, but the fact that like he was also had to be he like as as a scholar he had to be hopeful and enthusiastic about the fact that new things were about to pop up and new musics were about to like be created from this introduction of other stuff.

It was going to you know combine that traditional with the contemporary but like in some way or another it's going to happen. But yeah it's it's this weird kind of feel that we have to have as people who participate in traditional music. It's like well, I need to have respect for the tradition and I need to play as closely as I can to what other people would do, but at the same time, it's going to grow and I'm gonna bring myself into it and it's going to change because of that for better or for worse. So that is to say, I don't, I very rarely play like a back beat anymore. It's really just a couple of tunes that I'll do that for. And it's mostly newer ones, I think like Neckbelly. I think technically Neckbelly number two, it's a Sharon Shannon tune.

Yeah, and like that one, like I think it's the B part, like it just needs a back beat. Like that's just like, and I think like when she recorded, I think that they had like a drum set player playing with them as well. And so that was, you know, kind of, I would imagine would be like her idea with the tune is to kind of do something like that. And so in that way, like that tune, I put a back beat in that one, but like I don't do it hardly else. One of the things that I do try to do is follow the feel of the melody player, whoever it is.

I think it was Shannon Heaton was like she has some examples of that like where she shows like that lift in Irish music right the Irish left they're like putting emphasis on the upbeat or if they think about a different way like one two three four one two three four putting their like emphasis on the three one two three four one two three four one two three four and so like that's a lot of what I do on the drum now.

That's my typical way of accompanying a reel, just because I'm trying to help the melody player feel the music the way that they want to feel it. And so I'll kind of lean into that some. And that might change depending on who I'm playing with or the tune I'm playing with. I might maybe try and go for some other types of accompaniment where I leave that out. But yeah, typically I try to do that.

Hannah: Yeah, so maybe what's like, what's a different way that I mean, because I know we've played together now over a handful of times, but barely. So like a way that you'd be accompanying me versus someone else maybe in Columbus that you play with regularly, like I knew Sarah and Carol. What would maybe be a different approach for because I know we we all have different ways that we play tunes.

Jim: Yeah, that's a really good question that I don't know if I can answer right now. Just in that I haven't thought about it all that much. I literally haven't put words to it or thought about those situations independently of one another.

Hannah: But you know that you're doing it. It's just you haven't come up with the what you're doing. Yeah.

Jim: Right, yeah, exactly. Like I can't quantify it right now, or maybe even qualify it. But, I mean, really more than anything, I do my best to listen. And just, you know, where it kind of lines up the most is actually with other accompanists. So I think that's one of the easiest ways to kind of describe it a lilt bit. So if I'm playing with a guitarist or a bouzouki player, there are a lot of ways that they could be playing that I want to accentuate as well. I feel like the bodhrán more than anything, I think it's like the on the back burner as far as like what my job is, you know?

At least that's how I do it. Melody obviously is up there and then a string accompaniment will be next and then bodhrán will be after that. As far as who gets priority for feel and for style and that kind of thing.

If I'm playing with a guitar player, I want to copy as much as possible what they're doing with their chord changes and with their rhythm. I play with this guitarist here in Columbus. I play with a guy named Steve Steele.

Hannah: Hi Steve!

Jim: Hi, Steve! And Steve, a lot of times, he plays a lot of the upbeat.

He does a lot of that and like a lot of his his bass line stuff is like stepwise and so I will follow along with some of that stuff and and try as much as possible to kind of do what he's doing or if he is adding syncopations into his playing I'll try and follow that as well and like there there are sometimes too like he'll be playing a bass line of a bum bum bum bum bum bum and so on the drum I have to go I change that up sometimes, but I try and follow along. It's an easiest example, I think, of something like that, where I'm trying to copy what somebody else is doing. I feel when you get into fiddle, it's a lot more of minute stuff to talk about.

Hannah: Hmm, then when maybe when you're playing with Randy Clepper on bouzouki because he's got both melody and the chords as well. So how would that be different from playing with Steve?

Jim: So I actually won't talk about Randy. I'm going to talk about a different bouzouki player in town. Just like.

Hannah: Okay, sorry, Randy. We love you, Randy.

Jim: Love you. Love you dad! So. Just because I think it's a more extreme example. So there's a there's a bouzouki player in town named Mick Broderick. Yeah. And he so he plays in if people are familiar with the band Slide, he's the bouzouki player for them. He's also done a collaboration with Dave Curley many times. And then he last year was doing a group called Three Flew West with him and Colin Farrell and Dave Curley. And I think he has a new project. I think they added a flute player, I forget who. So but he's a phenomenal...

Hannah: We'll find out during festival season!

Jim: Yes, that's right. So he's a phenomenal bouzouki player but like the way he plays is like I can't do with Steve. Well, it's interesting. I can't do with Steve what I would do with Mick. In that like Mick, well like I end up doing, this is complicated because I do end up maybe doing some similar stuff.

But like Mick is all over the place. Like he, he has a phenomenal sense of rhythm and like syncopation and just doing wild stuff. And, and so whereas with Steve, I might play along with Steve to kind of like back up what he's doing. I'm going to play against Mick to kind of show off what he's doing a bit more. You know what I mean? Where he'll maybe do something where he'll like, I won't line up with him on that. I'll play against his, I'll go boom. You know, just a really easy example, maybe where like, yeah, exactly. And so, yeah.

Hannah: Hmm. The contrast, yeah. Mm -hmm.

Jim: I try as much as possible to, and like leave space for him to kind of like do his thing as well. Like if he is going to do some like cool counter melody thing. You know, it's the same with Randy as well. But, and like even like if I'm thinking about Randy, he has a duo with, Randy Clepper has a duo with a guy named John Sherman, where John plays, for the most part, fingerstyle guitar and Randy plays bouzouki. And they do this wonderful, really, really cool, delicate stuff.

And with that, I have to do as little as possible because they're doing so many small intricate things that if I were to come in bashing, nobody's gonna be able to hear what they're doing at all. And so I really try as much, we were talking about sound before.

I really try as much as possible to like just add some sounds add some colors to it So I'll play around with these different types of tippers with them Where I will try and like, yeah, just add like a little splash of color here and there, maybe add like a little bit more bass playing and get a couple of those like those clattery sounds in there too, just to kind of add some of those things. So yeah, honestly, it kind of, I know you asked about fiddle playing and like how I might play differently, different fiddles, but I'm thinking more like with other accompanists just because it's a lilt bit of an easier example.

In like the accompanist role and just trying to add to the moment and seeing like, I think that that's one of the hardest, or one of like the, it's really, yeah, it's really all about what you can add to the moment.

And like with Steve, I support him. Like I try to play along with him. Mick, I play against him. I try to, because he's doing cool stuff, I want to give him a foundation to do the cool stuff on. With Randy and John, I add colors because they don't need anything else because they have so many intricate things going on. They don't need any rhythm to play against or with.

I think, in line with my kind of percussive background as well. Like, trying to think along those lines, like what colors and sounds can I do? Like not, it's maybe not super like, I'm not thinking about trad and authenticity in that way. I'm thinking about like, what am I adding to the music? Not thinking about it as trad, thinking about it as music. What does this musical moment need that it doesn't already have? Yeah.

Hannah: Hmm. Yeah. I think that's a good note to close us out on, but Jim, thank you so much for your time. Where can people connect with you, learn more about what you're up to, come watch you play with all these incredible players, including Randy, because we love Randy.

Jim: Yeah, we love Randy. So yeah, you can catch up with me. My Instagram handle, if you got Instagram, is Jim Droth. My name is Jim Lindroth, and Lin and Jim are close enough you can interchange them. So it's just J -I -M - D -R -O -T -H. And then, but then my, I have a website. You can see some of my musical going-ons there. I have a couple different projects up on there that I've played with before and some examples of stuff that I do. So yeah, that's pretty much it.

Hannah: I'll have that linked below. So great chatting with you!

Jim: Thank you so much for having me. It's been a blast!